Coloidial Silica

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Subject Author Date
Coloidial Silica jpolaski 07-27-2005
Posted by on July 27, 2005, 4:25 pm
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It looks like the list is slowing down, so I though I'd post a couple
of new messages...

The first is that I've been making my own colloidal silica... I bought
a couple of bags of fine-mesh silica from Laguna Clay, a (relatively)
local ceramics supply place. I took a couple of big spoon fulls of the
silica powder, mixed it with maybe a quart of filtered water, and let
it sit for a week. I figure that anything still in solution after a
week is going to be colloidal...

The liquid originally had an opaque look to it, like thin paint, and
changed to a smoky translucent liquid, just like to colloidal silica I
bought. I tried a little bit of it, and it doesn't have as much silica
in it as the store bought stuff, but it's much cheaper.

I'm trying again with about half a cup of the silica powder. That
should make it have quite a bit more silica in it.

I've used colloidal silica for my new forge, made out of a $10 swap
meet air pig, ceramic blanket, two heavy-duty fire bricks, and one Reil
burner. I also dusted it with some zircon powder, to help reflect the
heat back. It works great! I've been running the propane at 5 p.s.i.,
and that's plenty for general forging. The fire bricks take a while to
come up to heat, so I think I should have used smaller bricks, or
lighter insulating bricks. But once it's hot I can dump a pretty big
piece of metal in there and it doesn't cool down at all.

At 10 p.s.i. the whole thing glows bright orange, with a little yellow.
I've just started trying to weld in it... I can make a poor quality
weld at 20 p.s.i. I think it's more my technique that's the problem,
but I'll have to experiment some more until I can tell what's really
going on.

Well, I have to say, it's been a lot of fun! I'm really looking forward
to doing a *lot* more forging...


Posted by Eide on July 27, 2005, 9:52 pm
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What do you do with colloidal silica?

> It looks like the list is slowing down, so I though I'd post a couple
> of new messages...
>
> The first is that I've been making my own colloidal silica... I bought
> a couple of bags of fine-mesh silica from Laguna Clay, a (relatively)
> local ceramics supply place. I took a couple of big spoon fulls of the
> silica powder, mixed it with maybe a quart of filtered water, and let
> it sit for a week. I figure that anything still in solution after a
> week is going to be colloidal...
>
> The liquid originally had an opaque look to it, like thin paint, and
> changed to a smoky translucent liquid, just like to colloidal silica I
> bought. I tried a little bit of it, and it doesn't have as much silica
> in it as the store bought stuff, but it's much cheaper.
>
> I'm trying again with about half a cup of the silica powder. That
> should make it have quite a bit more silica in it.
>
> I've used colloidal silica for my new forge, made out of a $10 swap
> meet air pig, ceramic blanket, two heavy-duty fire bricks, and one Reil
> burner. I also dusted it with some zircon powder, to help reflect the
> heat back. It works great! I've been running the propane at 5 p.s.i.,
> and that's plenty for general forging. The fire bricks take a while to
> come up to heat, so I think I should have used smaller bricks, or
> lighter insulating bricks. But once it's hot I can dump a pretty big
> piece of metal in there and it doesn't cool down at all.
>
> At 10 p.s.i. the whole thing glows bright orange, with a little yellow.
> I've just started trying to weld in it... I can make a poor quality
> weld at 20 p.s.i. I think it's more my technique that's the problem,
> but I'll have to experiment some more until I can tell what's really
> going on.
>
> Well, I have to say, it's been a lot of fun! I'm really looking forward
> to doing a *lot* more forging...
>



Posted by on July 28, 2005, 12:10 pm
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I should have been more clear. The colloidal silica is used as a
coating for ceramic fiber to stabilize the fibers. If you use a
gas-fired forge the fibers have a tendency to come loose during use.
I'm certainly no expert, but I understnad that it's a health hazard.

The silica forms a glass-like layer that helps to seal in all the
fiber-ey goodness (and keep it out of my lungs). The layer is pretty
brittle, though, especially at heat. It's good to have some brick or
kiln shelf on the bottom of your kiln to lay the metal down on.

This is my first forge, and I'm just begining this whole blacksmithing
thing, so I'm certainly no expert... I'm just trying to share some of
my experience with others. I'd certainly reccommend using the silica
wash over any ceramic fiber... A couple of tips, though:
Once the silica goes down it gets pretty crunchy. I thought I could
spray some water on it to loosen it up a bit, but it doesn't seem to
work that way. Once it's dry it's ridgid and pretty much staying in
whatever shape it already has. In other words, don't coat the blanket,
let it dry, and *then* try to form it with a little water.
I've been brushing it on, but I think a cheap water-mister spray
bottle would work better.
The ceramic fiber crushes pretty easily, and a thin layer of silica
breaks very easily, some times tearing a thin piece of blanket off with
it. I think you're better off soaking the blanket. Also, I'd recommend
using at *least* a two inch thick layer of blanket.

Just to share a little of what I learned building my forge...

First, let me qualify this by saying that it's far too easy (for me, at
least) to get obsessed with the tools and not get a whole lot of work
done, and you can easily do great work with just about *any* tools. So,
if you're new to this, you shouldn't get too hung up on the exact forge
design or anything, as long as it's safe and does what you want.

After I built the forge, I realize that I was a little too focused on
the burners, and not the forge body. For a gas forge I think that,
given the choice between a super-efficient burner or a well-insulated
forge, it's better to have a well-insulated forge.

My thinking is that the working forge is analogous to a river flowing
into a dam. The burner is like the river and the dam is like the forge.
The amount of heat is like the level of water behind the dam. What you
want is to get the level of water up as high as you can. No matter
what, though, you're going to loose some water due to evaporation. If
you open up the flood gates (i.e. loose a lot of heat) you're going to
have to throw a lot more water in behind the dam to get the level to
rise. If you close up the flood gates (i.e. insulate) you can have a
relative *trickle* of water flowing in and the level will still rise.

Focusing on burners is like adding more water without closing the flood
gates. You can do it, and it will work fine, but you're going to use a
lot more fuel than you need to. I think most people will be better off
with "O.K." burners and more insulation.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it should get the message across... Any
comments?


Posted by Jacob Hawes on July 28, 2005, 5:21 pm
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What is the boiling and melting temperature for this stuff? Does it do
anything to hold in heat or does it just help bind fibers together?

jpolaski@rgs.uci.edu wrote:
> I should have been more clear. The colloidal silica is used as a
> coating for ceramic fiber to stabilize the fibers. If you use a
> gas-fired forge the fibers have a tendency to come loose during use.
> I'm certainly no expert, but I understnad that it's a health hazard.
>
> The silica forms a glass-like layer that helps to seal in all the
> fiber-ey goodness (and keep it out of my lungs). The layer is pretty
> brittle, though, especially at heat. It's good to have some brick or
> kiln shelf on the bottom of your kiln to lay the metal down on.
>
> This is my first forge, and I'm just begining this whole blacksmithing
> thing, so I'm certainly no expert... I'm just trying to share some of
> my experience with others. I'd certainly reccommend using the silica
> wash over any ceramic fiber... A couple of tips, though:
> Once the silica goes down it gets pretty crunchy. I thought I could
> spray some water on it to loosen it up a bit, but it doesn't seem to
> work that way. Once it's dry it's ridgid and pretty much staying in
> whatever shape it already has. In other words, don't coat the blanket,
> let it dry, and *then* try to form it with a little water.
> I've been brushing it on, but I think a cheap water-mister spray
> bottle would work better.
> The ceramic fiber crushes pretty easily, and a thin layer of silica
> breaks very easily, some times tearing a thin piece of blanket off with
> it. I think you're better off soaking the blanket. Also, I'd recommend
> using at *least* a two inch thick layer of blanket.
>
> Just to share a little of what I learned building my forge...
>
> First, let me qualify this by saying that it's far too easy (for me, at
> least) to get obsessed with the tools and not get a whole lot of work
> done, and you can easily do great work with just about *any* tools. So,
> if you're new to this, you shouldn't get too hung up on the exact forge
> design or anything, as long as it's safe and does what you want.
>
> After I built the forge, I realize that I was a little too focused on
> the burners, and not the forge body. For a gas forge I think that,
> given the choice between a super-efficient burner or a well-insulated
> forge, it's better to have a well-insulated forge.
>
> My thinking is that the working forge is analogous to a river flowing
> into a dam. The burner is like the river and the dam is like the forge.
> The amount of heat is like the level of water behind the dam. What you
> want is to get the level of water up as high as you can. No matter
> what, though, you're going to loose some water due to evaporation. If
> you open up the flood gates (i.e. loose a lot of heat) you're going to
> have to throw a lot more water in behind the dam to get the level to
> rise. If you close up the flood gates (i.e. insulate) you can have a
> relative *trickle* of water flowing in and the level will still rise.
>
> Focusing on burners is like adding more water without closing the flood
> gates. You can do it, and it will work fine, but you're going to use a
> lot more fuel than you need to. I think most people will be better off
> with "O.K." burners and more insulation.
>
> It's not a perfect analogy, but it should get the message across... Any
> comments?
>

Posted by on July 28, 2005, 5:54 pm
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As far as I can tell it just holds the fibers together.

I'm not sure of the boiling or melting temperatures... But with a
little help from Google I get 3100=B0 F.
(http://netra.glendale.cc.ca.us/ceramics/glazebasics.html). So that's
at least the melting temp... If you can boil it in your forge you're
way beyond me!

I don't think it does much to hold in the heat, either. It might make
it a little worse, actually... It fills up the spaces between the
ceramic fibers. This is just a guess, but I think it makes the
insulation a little worse because the "air space" is filled with
crystaline junk from the sillica. It's only for about 1/8", though, so
it doesn't make much of a difference.

I should also say that colloidal silica seems to be commonly used in
ceramics kilns. I decided to try it based on this thread:
http://tinyurl.com/drhy8.



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