Good try, but not good enough; Nail making!!!

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Good try, but not good enough; Nail making!!! spaco 12-01-2009
Posted by spaco on December 1, 2009, 10:27 am
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Thanks to those of you who did try to avoid me posting again, but not
enough of you replied, so here goes:

Here's some information on nail making. Some from a hobbyist (me) and
some from somebody who knows what they are doing (Jay Close).

> http://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Nails/Nailmaking.htm

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------------------------------

Posted by Curt Welch on December 1, 2009, 12:25 pm
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> Thanks to those of you who did try to avoid me posting again, but not
> enough of you replied, so here goes:
>
> Here's some information on nail making. Some from a hobbyist (me) and
> some from somebody who knows what they are doing (Jay Close).
>
> > http://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Nails/Nailmaking.htm
>
> Pete Stanaitis
> ------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I keep practicing nail making mostly at public demos as well. I can
do a one-heat nail (sometimes) but I can't get that consistency needed.
Lots more practice needed. I've probably only made about 50 nails total in
my life at this point.

The idea of keeping it part the shank parallel and not tapered is an
interesting point I had not heard.

And the idea of always putting it in the header the same way (relative to
the the two shoulders) was something I thought up as being useful, but
never really pay enough attention to to implement in practice yet. I also
thought it might be useful to score cross-hair like center lines on the top
of the nail header to help identify the center of the nail so it's easier
to know exactly which way you have to hammer the head to center it. Trying
to guess based on the shape of the nail header doesn't seem to be accurate
enough for me. Often I think I've got it centered only to find out once I
pop it out I was way off.

Also, the idea of nicking on only two sides to make a point to help give
the required material in the right side to make it center better is an
interesting idea.

To do a one heat nail, I keep the cutoff hardy in the anvil as I work.
This makes many fellow smiths very nervous. They keep telling me to take
it out! I too get nervous watching other smiths work on an anvil with the
cut-off hardy in place so I can understand their concern. But when trying
to do one-heat nails, stopping to put in the hardy doesn't work for me. Do
you leave the cutoff tool in as you are making nails, or do you find you
can pull it in and out while working? Or do use some other approach like
using a sharp anvil edge for making nicks instead of a cutoff tool?

My understanding was that for nail production back in the day, they made
special nail-making stations that had a number of features to automate and
speed up the process - but I don't fully understand how that was done.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/

Posted by spaco on December 1, 2009, 1:04 pm
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Curt Welch wrote:
<snip>
>
> To do a one heat nail, I keep the cutoff hardy in the anvil as I work.
> This makes many fellow smiths very nervous. They keep telling me to take
> it out! I too get nervous watching other smiths work on an anvil with the
> cut-off hardy in place so I can understand their concern. But when trying
> to do one-heat nails, stopping to put in the hardy doesn't work for me. Do
> you leave the cutoff tool in as you are making nails, or do you find you
> can pull it in and out while working? Or do use some other approach like
> using a sharp anvil edge for making nicks instead of a cutoff tool?

I usually put the cutoff hardy into my vise and leave it there when I am
making nails. I don't usually bring a post vise with me when I have to
take a whole blacksmith setup. Instead, I have a steel topped table that
supports a mid sized machinists type vise. The vise is at the corner
closest to the forge, so I only need to turn slightly from the anvil to
use it.
>
> My understanding was that for nail production back in the day, they made
> special nail-making stations that had a number of features to automate and
> speed up the process - but I don't fully understand how that was done.

Good point! Go back to the webpage and look again.

http://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Nails/Nailmaking.htm

I just added a couple of pix of an Austrian Nail Maker's setup.

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------

Posted by Curt Welch on December 1, 2009, 2:40 pm
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> Curt Welch wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > To do a one heat nail, I keep the cutoff hardy in the anvil as I work.
> > This makes many fellow smiths very nervous. They keep telling me to
> > take it out! I too get nervous watching other smiths work on an anvil
> > with the cut-off hardy in place so I can understand their concern. But
> > when trying to do one-heat nails, stopping to put in the hardy doesn't
> > work for me. Do you leave the cutoff tool in as you are making nails,
> > or do you find you can pull it in and out while working? Or do use
> > some other approach like using a sharp anvil edge for making nicks
> > instead of a cutoff tool?
>
> I usually put the cutoff hardy into my vise and leave it there when I am
> making nails. I don't usually bring a post vise with me when I have to
> take a whole blacksmith setup. Instead, I have a steel topped table that
> supports a mid sized machinists type vise. The vise is at the corner
> closest to the forge, so I only need to turn slightly from the anvil to
> use it.

Yeah, that sounds safer than working around the hardy on the anvil as long
as the vise is set up near enough to the anvil.

> > My understanding was that for nail production back in the day, they
> > made special nail-making stations that had a number of features to
> > automate and speed up the process - but I don't fully understand how
> > that was done.
>
> Good point! Go back to the webpage and look again.
>
> http://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Nails/Nailmaking.htm

Not exactly sure what I'm seeing in that picture. Seems to be an odd high
and narrow anvil piece in the middle for drawing out the nail, with the
nail header located on the edge. Does the header move at all once it's
wedged in? It looks like it doesn't so I guess you stick the nail in from
the top and twist it off? Then when it cools, tap it out from the bottom?

One setup I heard described seemed to have a spring (or maybe a lever?)
that somehow made it easy to pop out the previous nail. So I think you
would notch and taper a nail, put it in the header and finish it. Then
start on the next nail, and when it was time to put it in the header, you
would tap the spring (or lever) which would pop out the (now cooled)
previous nail before inserting the next one. Or maybe the cutoff hardy was
someone associated with the lever so as you notch the nail head, it pops
out the previous nail from the header at the same time?

I've heard described a notched cutoff hardy that was dull on the top edge
but sharp in the notch. This eliminates the need to carefully notch the
head - you place it there and give it one good blow to notch it. You can't
hit it too hard because the notch limits how much of the head you can cut.

I've also heard described a stepped anvil surface for shouldering the nail.
Again, the step is just the right offset to help correctly establish the
shoulder depth so you don't need to be as careful and accurate with your
hammer blows as you would be when you shoulder on the edge of the anvil. I
would think another step to act as a depth gauge stop would be useful there
to make sure you were placing the shoulder in exactly the same place for
every nail as well.

Do you prefer to make nails from round or square stock? I've just always
used square because that's what I was first shown.

> I just added a couple of pix of an Austrian Nail Maker's setup.
>
> Pete Stanaitis
> ------------------------

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/

Posted by spaco on December 1, 2009, 5:26 pm
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Curt Welch wrote:


>> http://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Nails/Nailmaking.htm
>
>
> Not exactly sure what I'm seeing in that picture. Seems to be an odd high
> and narrow anvil piece in the middle for drawing out the nail, with the
> nail header located on the edge. Does the header move at all once it's
> wedged in?
No.
It looks like it doesn't so I guess you stick the nail in from
> the top and twist it off? Then when it cools, tap it out from the bottom?

Yes, and Yes.
>
> One setup I heard described seemed to have a spring (or maybe a lever?)
> that somehow made it easy to pop out the previous nail. So I think you
> would notch and taper a nail, put it in the header and finish it. Then
> start on the next nail, and when it was time to put it in the header, you
> would tap the spring (or lever) which would pop out the (now cooled)
> previous nail before inserting the next one. Or maybe the cutoff hardy was
> someone associated with the lever so as you notch the nail head, it pops
> out the previous nail from the header at the same time?
>
> I've heard described a notched cutoff hardy that was dull on the top edge
> but sharp in the notch. This eliminates the need to carefully notch the
> head - you place it there and give it one good blow to notch it. You can't
> hit it too hard because the notch limits how much of the head you can cut.
>
> I've also heard described a stepped anvil surface for shouldering the nail.
> Again, the step is just the right offset to help correctly establish the
> shoulder depth so you don't need to be as careful and accurate with your
> hammer blows as you would be when you shoulder on the edge of the anvil. I
> would think another step to act as a depth gauge stop would be useful there
> to make sure you were placing the shoulder in exactly the same place for
> every nail as well.

We used to head nails and bolts this way:
http://www.steinfels-kg.de/maschinen3_M08I6105_M08_en.html
>
> Do you prefer to make nails from round or square stock? I've just always
> used square because that's what I was first shown.
>
I usually use 1/4" square stock. I used to have to buy it in cold
rolled form because suppliers didn't
stock it hot rolled. Of course, cold rolled is twice as expensive.
So, to keep the cost down, I went to my favorite fab shop/local
stock supplier and asked them to shear 6 foot wide sheets of 1/4" A36 to
1/4" wide. That worked out real well. I did not care that there's a
little twist in the pieces, or that there was a "shear" edge. I do't
remember the cost, but I think they only charged me the going rate for
selling steel at the time, 50 cents per pound!
But, some years ago, one of our local professional blacksmiths bought
a ton or two of hot rolled (what he THOUGHT) was 1/4" square. He needed
it to go into one of those German twisting/embossing machines to make
baskets. Unfortunately for him, it was 6mm, not 1/4". The dies he had
for making 1/2" square basket sets wouldn't handle the 10 thou undersize
stock. To make a long story even longer, he decided to sell the stock
for $2.00 per twelve foot piece, and guess who now has a lifetime supply.
If I even needed any 1/4" square again, I'd go for the sheared stock.
At one point, I proudly told a club member who has done significant
research on early American blacksmithing, as he said "that's the way
they did it back in the early 1800's or so"! "The old is forever new",
I guess.

I have seen others use round stock. I think you'd save a couple of
blows per nail in a production environment, but other than that, I
don't see a real reason not to use it. I just don't do it that way,
either. I always have the square stock around for other things,
anyway. And, I once heard that one of the blacksmith apprentice's jobs
was to make "nail rod" from whatever scrap there was out back, so it
would be faster to make it to square and not have to waste heat and
labor to round it up.

Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

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